'EVs drive better,' says one of the internet’s biggest car guys

Many auto enthusiasts love sports cars with a loud engine, and Jonny Lieberman is no exception. So why does he prefer to drive electric vehicles?

“Generally speaking, EVs drive better, ride better, and have inherently better handling,” he said.

Lieberman is a longtime auto journalist and one of the industry's most respected voices. He currently hosts the YouTube show Driving with Jonny, where he test drives various vehicles—from sports cars to family SUVs and everything in between. In this episode of Plugged In: The Full Conversation, Kristina Zagame sat down with Lieberman to talk about why he prefers EVs and why he thinks Americans are hesitant to make the switch, covering topics like:

• The biggest myths about EVs

• Fossil fuel propaganda

• Do EVs actually save money

• Why some charging networks are terrible (and which ones to trust)

Kristina Zagame: Okay, so first of all, you drive a lot of different kinds of cars in your profession. What is your overall opinion on gas versus electric vehicles?

Jonny Lieberman: Yeah. Overall opinion on gas versus electric—I honestly see it I think differently than a lot of people. And I just see it as like there's no difference. Meaning that, you know, if you have an EV and understand how it works, you know, it just becomes another car. And I would actually say it's usually better. You know, we have both an EV and a combustion car, and yeah, I mean, my wife and I both like the electric vehicle better. It's just in terms of, like, you know, it's never out of gas. We just charge it at home. We don't have to, like, worry about forgot to put gas in it type thing. Could you forget to charge it? I guess you could. But, you know, I've got an app on my phone. When I open my screen—on my home screen, not even open it—like, just right here, my Rivian is at 79% state of charge. You know, so I don't know. So I think I see it differently now.

So I live in Southern California? Yes. Do I own my own home? Yes. Do I have a charger here? Yes. If I lived in an apartment in North Dakota, it would obviously be a different story. So it just becomes like an infrastructure conversation. As far as the cars go, generally speaking, EVs drive better, ride better. Yeah, they've inherently better handling because the center of gravity is so low to the ground. So, you know, I just see it really—I think it's really just more of an infrastructure issue. And, you know, if you haven't invested in infrastructure or the local government hasn't invested in infrastructure, you know, EVs, it's a big hill to climb. But like, for instance, I was in Oslo last year, the year before. But in Norway, you know, they've basically gone 100% electric vehicles now. I think it's like, you know, over 90% of the cars sold last year in '24 were EVs. I think in '25 now you can only buy EVs. And what the government did once they passed that law was they backed it up. So they said, "Look, if you own an apartment building, your residents have to be able to charge at their apartment." So they, you know, there's chargers in every single apartment building. So stuff like that. So, yeah, again, I think it's really more of an infrastructure issue than do I like one or the other better.

Kristina Zagame: What do you think is the number one aversion or stigma that people have against electric vehicles?

Jonny Lieberman: I mean, my opinion is raw ignorance. I talk to so many people: "I would never drive one. They're horrible. Don't they catch on fire?" And like, every time one of those is brought up, it's just—it's weird. It just—you know, I hate saying it, but it just strikes me as like propaganda by Chevron or Shell or, you know, the petroleum industry. Like there's 121,000 car fires a year in America—a year. How many that aren't EVs do you hear about? The answer is zero, because no one bothers to cover it. Somehow it's newsy if an EV catches on fire. It's not that more people are dying—actually, more people are dying in gasoline car fires. But it's just a newsy thing that gets like amplified by, you know, certain voices in the media that have an anti-EV bent.

I remember—go back to 2010, I want to say—we, as Motor Trend—I was still kind of with Motor Trend—but we just named the Chevrolet Volt our Car of the Year. And, you know, it was a plug-in hybrid, the first plug-in hybrid. And, you know, it just—the response was crazy. And it was really from this, like, weird right-wing echo chamber. Like, Rush Limbaugh denounced us. And so, you know, for like 24 hours straight, our phones were ringing off the hook with people calling us communists for naming an American, an innovative car, Car of the Year, which is the whole purpose of the award. But anyhow, I will never forget like a clip I saw—Neil Cavuto on Fox News—and they decided to actually interview a Chevy Volt owner, right? And, you know, every single talking point, the owner was like, "No, actually it works fine. No, actually it's great." I remember, like, Cavuto is just out of ammunition. And he says to the guy, he's like, "But can you fit in it?" And the guy's like, "Yeah, I fit just fine."

And so everything like, "You can't charge them"—actually, you can charge them. You know what? There's kind of electricity everywhere. And it turns out gasoline, you got to like truck around and pipeline. Electricity is really, really common. Yes, there's an upfront cost of putting in a charger, but, you know, the electricity is everywhere. And again, it's more of an infrastructure thing, a government thing. You know, they work just fine in the cold, especially if you leave them plugged in overnight. They, you know, the batteries won't freeze—every single thing. So I really do—I hate saying this—as if I'm so smart and other people are so uneducated, but they're so uneducated, and it's just ignorance of how EVs work. And I've rarely seen where someone buys an EV and then gets rid of it because they hated, like, the driving experience. It might be something like, "Oh, you know, I bought it and like I thought it'd be easier to charge. I couldn't charge it." But the actual product itself is really good in general.

Kristina Zagame: Well, how long have you had your EV?

Jonny Lieberman: We bought our Rivian in June of 2022, but I've been driving electric vehicles—I mean, yeah, when I took the first Tesla Model S home, probably in, like, December of 2012, something like that. And I drove a Tesla Roadster before that. So I've been around EVs for a long time.

Kristina Zagame: What are your thoughts on like the hybrid versus going full electric? Like, do you see a benefit of having both?

Jonny Lieberman: I see no benefit in having both. And I know I'm a minority in this opinion, but to me it's like you get the worst of both worlds, right? You get a gasoline car that typically has a really mediocre engine, and then you get an EV with a terrible range, you know, very, very small range. And then, you also—it encourages the worst types of behavior. So either because the range is so small, you charge the battery to 100%, which is bad for the life of the battery. Or you don't charge at all, and you just rely on the gas engine.

So yeah, the example I give is like the Toyota Prius Prime, I think it's called. Phenomenal car when you have an electric motor. The second that the small battery is empty, then you have this horrible Atkinson cycle weak gas engine that fires up, and it just makes the car totally charmless and boring. If they would just make that thing an EV, give it a 300-mile range and it looks like it does right now—like, wow, the Prius would be awesome. But, again, I think it's just an infrastructure issue because when you talk to people, they go, "Well, you know, if I'm on a road trip and I want to charge, I want to be able just to get gas." And, you know, yeah, okay. That's—I get that argument. 100% get that argument. That said, you know, I know people that drive electric vehicles all over the country all the time, but I get the argument. And, you know, it's very location dependent. But I just personally think if you're really not road-tripping constantly, you know, if you go to visit your in-laws once a year and you mostly just run around town, just get an EV. Like, why are you hauling around a gas engine and gas? Like, why ever go to a gas station if you don't need to?

Kristina Zagame: I think—yeah, I feel like for a lot of people, they say the hybrid because it feels like safer than being like without one.

Jonny Lieberman: I mean, to be clear, I'm talking about a plug-in hybrid versus a regular hybrid. Okay? You know, I have no problem with the hybridization of a car to get more performance or more efficiency out of it. It's the plug-in part where you're plugging it in—like the Wrangler, which is, you know, again, it's a very popular electric vehicle, but it has like 17 miles of range. Most people never plug it in. You know, what's the point? And it just makes it heavier for no reason. And then any advantage you get from it being an EV is gone as soon as the battery's dead, and then the gas engine kicks on. And again, it's like it's a pretty weak gas engine. You know, is there something like, I don't know, the Porsche Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid where—yeah, that thing can go whatever it is, like 30, 40, 50 miles on a charge. And then when that's off, you have a 600-some-horsepower V8. Like, okay, that's cool. But I drove that back-to-back with, like, the Audi RS e-tron GT, which is way cooler and just simpler. And like, why have two powertrains? One works fine. You know, you don't need two. You don't need two.

Kristina Zagame: You kind of already touched on this. But for a lot of people, buying an electric car, even with or without, you know, having charging at home, it's more expensive on average than your standard gas vehicle. There's also a big element of like, you know, the used car market is obviously really big. There aren't as many options for used EVs, and we'll get into the battery stuff later. But do you think the benefits and gas savings outweigh the difference that you pay upfront for a new electric car?

Jonny Lieberman: That's interesting. Yeah, it's hard to say like apples to apples. If you look at like a Hyundai Ioniq 5, which is, you know, can be had for $45,000 to $50,000 versus like, what's the best—like probably a Toyota RAV4, like just a regular RAV4 with, you know, the turbo engine. Like, yeah, the Hyundai will be a little bit more expensive, but it's like you drive them both and like, wow. Like just again, the EV, because of the inherited advantages of an EV, you're just going to have more power. That's how electric motors work. You're going to have more torque. You know, the great Bob Lutz quote, which is "Americans buy horsepower but drive torque." And what that means is we like snappy acceleration. You like to get on the freeway, you like to get away from a red light. That's torque. You have more torque. And it's just a simpler thing. And like, again, you know, you asked briefly about how long have I owned the Rivian we have—zero maintenance. I mean, like, okay, I probably spent $15 on windshield wiper fluid over the three years. That's it, that's it. You know, nothing else. I mean, I replaced the tires because I wanted better off-road tires. And I'm in a weird position where people just offer me tires for free and I take them. So I guess I should include that. But, you know, you replace tires on other cars, and we could get into the whole, like, "EVs wear through tires too quickly," and it's really more of a high-torque thing than it is an EV thing. If you look at heavy-duty trucks that are diesel-powered and make 1,000 foot-pounds of torque, guess what? They go through tires at exactly the same rate as EVs. Like how weird. You know, so it's a torque thing.

But, yeah, I think it's worth the extra money. Now, look, some people are very price sensitive. A lot of people—most people, the overwhelming vast majority of people—are not car enthusiasts. They see a car as like a refrigerator. It's an annoying thing you got to purchase a new one when it breaks. And so they're very cost sensitive. And yes, the fact that EVs are more expensive will make them less appealing to people that are price sensitive. 100%. That's just how life works. The cost of lithium is dropping down. And I think also you do reach a tipping point once a certain amount of EV adoption happens where it's just—because we know this—it's cheaper for OEMs to make EVs than it is to make a gas car. Because, you know, engines and transmissions have a zillion parts and they're complicated. EVs have one moving part. If you put in a couple of gears, a few moving parts, but very few. They're simpler and cheaper to make at scale. And in theory would be more profitable. So yeah, you have to reach this tipping point. I've kind of gone off the rails here with your question, but yes, the price is too high.

One more thing. And that is, you know, you do want to have an EV with decent range, and to have decent range, you need a decent-sized battery. And a big battery necessitates a larger wheelbase. And so it's really hard—and we'll probably never see them in the US, and we don't like small cars anyways here—but to see like a real small compact EV, like the Toyota Corolla of EVs, like, doesn't really exist. Yeah. Even Tesla, you know, they claim they're working on it. But like, there has been no small EV. And in America, small equals cheaper. We buy by the foot and by the pound. So that's another factor—the form factor. But as battery technology gets better—and it's getting better rapidly—you know, if we start to see solid-state batteries, like, I know like Nissan and Toyota, they're both saying 2028, '29 or so. Well, hey, a solid-state battery, you could have the exact same range in half the size. Then you can start making small cars and then it can be cheaper. The problem is solid-state battery tech might be expensive at first. I don't really know because it isn't in production.

Kristina Zagame: It's funny that you used the RAV4 as an example because that's my car.

Jonny Lieberman: Gas or plug-in?

Kristina Zagame: Gas. Unfortunately, it's like a 2010.

Jonny Lieberman: It's the best-selling midsize SUV that isn't a Tesla Model Y. And in fact, I haven't checked since the whole Musk-Trump nonsense. So I know Tesla sales are down, but I believe the Model Y did outsell it for a minute. I haven't checked, but, yeah, it's just the best-selling—Honda CR-V, same, same. They're all the same. They're the same size and power numbers and engines and all that.

Kristina Zagame: Yeah. I mean, I've had it since like 2013 and it still runs. It's not like if I could buy an EV, trade it in for an EV tomorrow, I would. But anyway.

Jonny Lieberman: Right. Well, I—yeah, that's the nice thing about Toyotas is they tend to run forever. So, and I'm looking at two Toyotas out my window—one's my neighbor's. So, yeah.

Kristina Zagame: Yeah, I always joke that I think that car will last longer than I do. Okay, moving on. Are there any hidden costs that people don't think about when comparing EVs to gas cars?

Jonny Lieberman: Hidden costs? I mean, they're just kind of cheaper. And I would say I would actually kind of reverse your question a little bit for you, but like, there's a hidden cost to buying a gas car, and that's the continued burning of, you know, gasoline and oil petroleum to make power. So, you know, like, there's a great Yale study—and you can look this up—but it's a Yale study of EVs. We know the efficiency of an internal combustion motor versus the efficiency of an electric motor. And it turns out that when you burn gasoline, 20% of the power—or 20% of the energy in the gasoline—is converted into forward momentum. The rest—80%—is heat and noise. So, you know, that's just how efficient they are.

With an EV, 60% of the battery—of the energy in the battery—is used for forward momentum, and 40% is lost to heat and noise. However, because of regenerative braking where you can actually spin the motors backwards to put energy back into the battery, electric vehicles are able to recapture 20 to 30%. So they can be between 80 and 90% efficient, and the gas car's 20% efficient. So that's 4 to 4.5 times just on efficiencies. In other words, if you're burning coal—and no one really does this, maybe in Colorado and Kentucky—but if you're burning coal specifically to make electricity and nothing else generates your electricity, it's still cleaner than burning gasoline because an electric vehicle is 4 to 4.5 times more efficient than a gas vehicle.

However, as the grid gets greener—and I can pull it up right now. I have an app on my phone, Cal ISO. And I can tell you, like, I'll just do it for the sake of podcast theater. Cal ISO today. Okay, let's see. Right now, hang on, I'm trying to find this. Okay, where is it? Here we go. Right. 78% of the energy being generated in California—and it's noon in the middle of July—78% is being created by solar, wind, geothermal, or hydro. Or actually, there's some percentage that is biomass and biogas. I don't really know what those are. But so 78% of the electricity in California right now is being generated by clean sources, meaning that there's no CO2 given off in their production. As that gets to 100%, EVs get that much greener. Whereas gasoline cars are always going to be polluting, and they're just inefficient, and they put stuff—again, if you lock yourself in a garage with a gas car running, you die. It's just not good. And that's not you—it's not the CO2, that's the other crap. And the CO2 we know warms the planet. You know, the planet's at this critical tipping point. It's actually probably way past the tipping point. We're probably—yeah, the truth is, like, we're doomed. Go ahead and burn all the gas you want—it's not going to make a difference. But I have a child. I want him to have a life and a family and all that in the future. So for a hope for the future, the hidden cost of not driving an EV is huge.

Kristina Zagame: Well said. I love it. You kind of touched on this earlier in talking about the apartment complex aspect. How important do you think it is for EV owners to have access to an EV charger at home?

Jonny Lieberman: It's super, super, super important. It just—you get a really lousy experience if you can't charge at home or at work. And I know some people that have an EV and they're able to drive to work and charge, which is just the opposite—they're charging during the day. And, you know, electricity during the day is more expensive than at night. So their cost goes up a little bit, or a lot, depending. But, yeah, you want to be able to charge at home. And even, you know, if you're using a Tesla Supercharger to charge—and, you know, there's a lot of them, and it's pretty convenient, and they're very reliable—I forget the exact price, but let's say it's like 58 cents a kilowatt-hour. I think for me to charge at home, DWP Los Angeles is like 22 cents a kilowatt-hour at night. It's like three times cheaper to charge at home than it would be to charge on a fast charger. And I think last time I was at an EA station, it was like 68 cents a kilowatt-hour, or kilowatt, I should say.

So, yeah, it's just better to charge at home. And, yeah, I mean, I have a lot of opinions. I'm not maybe as engaged as I should be, but like, there should absolutely be a movement like, you know, you can't rent somebody an apartment without heat. You shouldn't be able to rent them an apartment without the ability to install a charger if they want it. And really, I would say just make the landlord install a charger the way they install a water heater. It's just another utility. And it should be part of, like, you know, just the rental agreement. And, you know, it will cost money. Yes. But we pay taxes—put them towards something good, you know?

Kristina Zagame: Yeah. What should someone buying an EV consider when it comes to the battery life of your vehicle and battery replacement costs?

Jonny Lieberman: So this whole battery replacement cost thing—like, you know, people have been talking about it. I remember a lot in 2013 when the Model S came out, "It's going to be a billion dollars to replace the battery." Well, you know, they did a study. They looked at Model S's that're still on the road over a decade later. And it turns out that, you know, the batteries are all like over 90% state of health—you know, ten-year-old vehicles. So I think that's a boogeyman. I don't think you have to worry about that. Also, typically, if you look at the battery warranties, they're pretty good.

Now, how do you keep your battery nice and healthy? You know, most EVs—and again, no one's really ever told this—but you want to keep them at about—unless you're really going on a road trip where you need maximum range—charge to like 80%. Like my Rivian, I charge it up to 70%. And I don't bother plugging it in until it gets below 20%. And that's just a good kind of operating range for batteries. Again, at 37,000 miles on my truck, and like, we haven't noticed any degradation in the health of the battery.

So I think like a lot of people—and again, especially if you have to rely on fast chargers and you don't have a way to charge at home—they're constantly charging to 100%. And I don't think that's good for the life of the battery. Like, I know anecdotally some friends of mine have the first-generation Nissan Leaf, the really weird-looking one, and their battery's down to like 30% of what it was when they bought it. And I think when they bought it, it had like 100-mile range. They just, you know, they drop the kids off at school with it. But they're just like, "We're keeping it forever. It's paid for." You know, they're charging it on a 110 outlet and all that. They're trying to get their money out of it, and, you know, they've done that.

But I think with modern batteries and modern, you know, software—like, just, you know, just keep in mind, like, most of it's programmable, you know, just charge to like 70%, 80%. And I know, like, I don't know who Kyle Conner is from Out of Spec, but he's sort of like the EV wizard. He knows everything. He tells me he doesn't charge his truck past 50% just to extend the life of the battery unless he's going on a road trip. And, you know, 50% of 285 is, you know, 140 miles of range, 130-some miles of range. And that's enough for running around town. You know, I don't do that. I go up to 70%. But, and I showed you earlier at 79%, that's because it's getting some free charging right now. My wife took it to the airport, so I figured I might as well get some free electricity for the $30 a day she's paying. But, and it's also a real slow charger. It's like 6.2 kilowatts an hour or something.

So, yeah, I, you know, and I just haven't heard and I haven't seen any studies or reports about, like, this massive battery replacement thing. But, you know, like, what's it cost to replace an engine in a car? It's about eight grand. So it's probably a similar price. And, you know, you can also kind of work out the math a little bit. Like, you know, lithium right now is like, I don't know, $120, $115 a kilowatt-hour. If you have a 100-kilowatt-hour battery, it's going to cost that much plus the case and all that. But, but again, it seems to be one of those boogeymen where, like, "What about battery replacement?" Like, who? Where? I haven't seen it.

Kristina Zagame: Yeah. And you seem to know a lot of people who have EVs, so—

Jonny Lieberman: I mean, look, in the state of California, just EVs everywhere. And I just, you know, like I heard a weird thing the other day. Apparently it's true. I don't think it's quite as meaningful as it sounds, but there are now more EV chargers in California than gas nozzles. Yeah. It just means, like, you know, I have one in my house. I don't have a gas nozzle in my house, you know what I mean? But if there's a million EVs in California, you know, there's probably close to that many homeowners that have a charger. And, yeah, they're just putting them in all over the place. A lot of them aren't very good. It doesn't mean—like, like, like all gas nozzles are kind of the same. All chargers are not the same, very sadly. So I just—again, I could probably Google it right now. I bet you there's over a million EVs in California. And it's just not—who's replacing batteries, you know? And then usually if it does happen, it's like a warranty claim early on in the vehicle's life. I just, you know, I've heard of, like, a Taycan needing a new battery. I think in 2013 when we had our first-year Tesla Model S at Motor Trend, I think we—we didn't even ask them—they just like replaced the battery. We took it in for like—I don't know, there was something wrong with it—and they replaced the motor and the battery. So, but it's quick. You know, the Tesla battery comes out with four bolts. So at least on the Model S.

Kristina Zagame: I want to touch on something you said. You said not all of the chargers are good. What do you mean by that? What, like, constitutes it being good or bad?

Jonny Lieberman: I mean, what's a good charger? A good charger is fast and works. And exists. So I, you know, I remember I took this one road trip with my kid a couple years ago. We went to Morro Bay in an Audi e-tron GT, and, like, got to one charger. It was great. It was an EA charger. Worked fine. Got to another charger. It was not Electrify America. And it had been cut. There was, like, a single charger at a courthouse in Morro Bay or something like that, some civic building. Somebody cut it off. It was gone. And we went to another one where it was broken. It was there, but it didn't work.

A lot of times Electrify America, especially—now they've really improved. They're on their Gen 4 charger, but their Gen 3, man—you plug it in, "Connecting," sit there for five minutes, doesn't work. You know, replug it in. Credit card reader is not working. It won't take your money. Got to call. "Okay, I'm going to remotely reset the thing." So, great. Well, you've been, like, trying to make it work for 15 minutes. That's frustrating. Then you got to charge, you know, 15 or 30 minutes.

You know, EVgo is notorious for this where it just doesn't work or it's slow or broken chargers. And then, look, you know, it's like—you, being not you, but like the consumer—has never thought about a gas pump because you show up, you plug it in. If you would stop and think about it, like, yeah, that Chevron pump is a little slower than the Shell pump for whatever reason. It just varies pump to pump. But you really don't pay attention to that, right? Well, with EVs, you have Level 1, Level 2, Level 3. And, you know, CCS versus NACS. There's just a lot to know and think about, and most people just don't care. I'm supposed to care and I barely care. You know, I just want it to work.

So Tesla chargers tend to be really good. You know, the uptime's great. They replace the cables. That's the other thing too. The cables—no one knows this—but they wear out like crazy. So, like, after every 400 charges or so, I think they replace the cables. Whereas like EVgo never replaces the cables. Screw you. You can just, you know, charge slower. And so that's good. And bad would be—I don't know if it's still there, but if you go to Baker, California, there was an EVgo charger setup, but it's like in an abandoned parking lot. No trash cans, no bathrooms. There's two 150-kilowatt chargers, which is slow. They should be 350 by this point. There's one 350 and two, whatever. It doesn't matter. But there's only six chargers total. And why would you ever go to Baker? You go to Baker like because you're on your way to Vegas. That's your last stop before you get to Vegas from LA, right? There's only six, and 3 or 4 of them are like 50-kilowatt-hour chargers. So they're really slow Level 2 chargers. It's like double what I can do at my house essentially.

And last time I was there, I think like of the six chargers, like four were broken. And I remember saying, "This should be in like the Petersen Museum"—it's a car museum—"as the state of the bad state of the art of charging in 2023." It's gotten better because you could go across the street and there was an Electrify America installation, 12 chargers. Still not enough, but 12 chargers. I should say—I counted them—88 Tesla Superchargers in the same gas station which had like a Jersey Mike's and restrooms, and you could get water and trash cans everywhere. And, you know, the last time I used that station, I think I was in a Porsche Taycan with my kid. You know, we plugged in, we both went to the bathroom. We bought, like, beef jerky and two bottles of water. And by the time we got back, it was charged to 85%. You know what I mean? So, like, that's how it should be. That's the experience you're used to by putting gas in your car. Anything less than that sucks. And that's a bad charger.

Kristina Zagame: Are there any like specific—you mentioned a few names—are there any specific charging stations you recommend like people avoid?

Jonny Lieberman: You know, I shouldn't pick on EVgo too much. But we had—I used to do this EV podcast called The Inevitable—and we had like the—I can't remember who it was, chief marketing officer or something—on, and he promised up and down that they're getting better. And it's the credit card company's fault somehow, even though you can buy like anything in the universe with a credit card, you can't charge a car with a credit card. That was his excuse.

But, yeah, I mean, like, I was really hard for years on Electrify America, and they seem to have actually turned a corner. They really do seem like they're good. So if I was on a road trip and I was worried about time—but I'm like, if you're driving a Tesla, you just go to the Tesla Supercharger. It's a no-brainer. Game over. Works 100% of the time. Drive cross-country if you want.

In my Rivian—and again, this is very anecdotally, but this is starting to happen more and more—but like now I'm able to use the Tesla Supercharger network. I just have to have an adapter. But like most new EVs coming out, they're switching to what's called NACS, North American Charging Standard. That's the Tesla charging standard. And so they'll be able to natively use the Tesla Superchargers. I know Fords can do it. I think GM can do it now.

So I would first look—if I was really interested in making time and I had to be somewhere—I would look for a Tesla first, then Electrify America. And then after that, I don't know. There's that new one—Ivana—no, not Ivana. I'm sorry, IONNA. And that's supposedly great. I haven't used it yet. That's the one where it's like seven OEMs. Like, it's like GM, Ford, BMW, Hyundai, Kia, whoever else came together, and they're building these, like, really nice charging stations that have amenities and clean bathrooms. And, you know, the chargers work and they're going to make sure they're working. IONNA—I would look for that.

And then also, like, for instance, there's the Rivian charging network or whatever it's called—Rivian Adventure Network. Those are great. And those are open to anybody. I believe they have like super sites where anybody can charge. There's one right by the entrance to Joshua Tree National Park. There's a Rivian thing. I forget—it's like a dozen chargers—and anybody can charge there. Those are great. Mercedes is starting to open up Mercedes charging stations which are, you know, more luxurious-type things and designer junk to buy inside or whatever. But I would say first and foremost, like, you know, I'd want to charge on the Tesla network because it's just that reliable. And then lately, the last 18 months, like Electrify America has been wonderful—fast, works great, like, really not a lot of problems.

Kristina Zagame: I know in California this is probably the case, but do you feel like nationwide there are enough charging stations for EVs to feel as convenient as gas cars?

Jonny Lieberman: Oh, by the way, there's not enough in California. Like, I live less than a mile away—there's an Electrify America site that has like three real chargers. It has like an old CHAdeMO, whatever it's called, where you can charge like a first-gen Leaf and some of the old, old EVs. But there's three, and it's at the grocery store I go to, and I always look and it's like there's three cars charging 24 hours a day with a line of 3 to 10 cars waiting. And that's how it is like at every spot in Southern California. So like, definitely not enough chargers here. And again, why are people supercharging or fast-charging during the day at a grocery store? It's because they don't have a charger where they live. For the most part. Like, you know, you might be on a road trip and you go to the Glendale Ralphs to charge, but that's what's driving that—a lot of people are buying EVs that can't charge them at home. Nationwide? Like, no, it is not even kind of enough. And, yeah, there definitely needs to be more. But yeah, not enough.

Kristina Zagame: Do you feel like there are regions that are getting charging infrastructure—charging infrastructure? My Boston accent just came out for you. Do you feel like there are regions that are getting charging infrastructure right? Or do they all kind of need to improve?

Jonny Lieberman: I would just say, like, I think everybody needs to improve across the board. Like, you know, I was just in Park City, Utah, and like, man, like it's like, you know, 8,500 residents. And I saw, like, you know, a few dozen Rivians. Like, they're kind of everywhere. I'm assuming there's some kind of charging infrastructure, or maybe everyone just has a home charger. I don't know. But I wish I knew more to answer that. I would say you would think California would have it right at this point. And we have it very, very wrong. There's just not enough chargers. And like we try to charge at night, you know, just because it's cheaper. And the other day I had some time to kill or something, and I was like, "Oh, I'm going to go check out some other chargers I've never been to, just to see how they are and charge." Like, "That'll be fun. Why not do that?" And I went to one like in Burbank and it was insane. There was 10 chargers or 12 chargers—a big Electrify America, totally full. I think it was in a Walmart parking lot. Like, line of cars was insane. And I was like, "Okay, forget that." Then I went to another spot. I can't remember where the other spot was. But like, even just as crazy. And then I went to like a third spot almost in the middle of nowhere. And there was like three vehicles waiting, so I had to wait like that long. So it's like even here, you know, like it just—it's not where it needs to be.

Now, there's a lot of reasons for that. And one is like, you know, it's just not really profitable to, you know, be a charging company. You know, nobody wants to pay—you know, if you made electricity the price of gasoline, which is crazy, don't do that, but that would maybe be really profitable. But, you know, chargers are like $100,000 or something to install. And then the initial installation where you have to get the big transformer is millions of dollars. So, yeah, it's just one of those things where, you know, the way the government at one point invested in roads because it helps the people that the government's responsible for. And, you know, like, you know, our interstate highway system is a miracle. We need that with charging infrastructure. Same thing.

But I think the sad news is that, you know, the Biden bill was going to do that. And it looks like the Trump administration is completely undoing that. So, you know, we're going to have to wait. But, you know, Europe is doing that. China is doing that. And so these are our big competitors. And we're just going to be left behind, which is like—why would America be behind anybody at anything? And we're going to be. So it's kind of tragic to my eyes.

Kristina Zagame: Do you feel like the loss of the tax credit for EVs will cause a major dip in people buying them?

Jonny Lieberman: No, I don't think a major dip because I think a lot of people—like, it's still not cash on the hood, you know what I mean? It's like you got a tax credit. Like, you know, it is nice, obviously, but I don't think it's going to be that major. I mean, I think it's idiotic. I think because again, no one talks about this, but like, you know, man, talk about subsidized oil. Man, you want to talk about a subsidized commodity in this country? It's something like 25—the first 25% of profits you make from oil is untaxed. You know, so it's like—that's why gas in this country is so cheap. You know? Which is crazy. What other anything is—you know, what—25% of the profits are untaxed? Like, and my numbers could be a little out of date on that, but I believe that to be the case. Like, yeah, oil's totally subsidized. And so the tax credit—not only is it doing the right thing because again, we do want less CO2 being put into the atmosphere. It's really bad for humans. The planet's going to be here. Mars is there. Nothing can live on it. Mars is fine. But for humans, for us to exist in our current form, we know we want less CO2. And one way we do that is by burning less fossil fuels. So not only is it doing the right thing, but it was also kind of leveling the playing field so that, you know, EVs had a chance to compete with gas cars because gas is so subsidized.

Kristina Zagame: You kind of touched on this earlier. But just back to that environmental argument. A lot of people, you know, counter with the "Oh, the batteries are even worse for the environment." What is your response to people who give you that answer?

Jonny Lieberman: That's a complete total fabrication. Nothing could be less true. Lithium is the third element on the periodic table. When the, you know, when the Big Bang happened, you know, there were two primary elements in the universe at that moment in time—that was, you know, helium, hydrogen, with a little bit of lithium. It's a really simple element. It's a metal. If you look at it in a bubble—in other words, you pretend there's nothing wrong with oil extraction. Okay. Just pretend that that doesn't exist. Lithium versus nothing. Yes, it's dirtier to mine lithium and cobalt. And cobalt—really, there aren't any cobalt mines. There are copper mines. Cobalt's a byproduct of copper mining. And in the Democratic Republic of Congo—or they might have changed the name to just Congo. I'm sorry, I'm a little out of date on that—yeah, it's mined horribly from a human cost. And that sucks. And, you know, the lithium-ion battery in my laptop, or your laptop that you're telling me that, you know, lithium is bad—that's got cobalt. Your phone's got, you know, cobalt. By the way, you cannot refine oil into gasoline or diesel fuel without cobalt as a catalyst. You've never burned a gallon of gas in your life without using cobalt mined in the places where cobalt was mined. So it's hypocritical. It's also false. Like, environmentally false.

The other thing is, again, you mine lithium once. Gasoline you're burning forever constantly. And again, we're not talking about—you got to get oil. Once that's pumped out, you got to ship it somewhere. Oh. How do you ship it? One of these massive—the biggest boats in the world. Guess what? They're burning bunker fuel, which is just the filthiest substance known to man. So, by the way, if you stop using gasoline, we get half the boats off the ocean. You'd cut that CO2 output and NOx output. Really, that stuff is disgusting. Cut that completely. You got to ship it somewhere, then you got to refine it. Boy, we should talk about the refining process. If you want to talk about, like, bad for the environment, go check out cancer rates in like El Segundo or Richmond, California. It's horrible. Then you got to ship that somewhere, and you got to burn diesel fuel to ship the fuel. I mean, it's nuts.

Whereas lithium, it's a one-time thing. Yeah, there's the energy, but you pull it out and then it's a battery and you use it for a couple hundred thousand miles. And as we talked about, as the grid gets greener, the cars get greener. So it's insane to me that that took hold. It's a conspiracy theory. It's false. It's a lie. It's damaging, it's dangerous, and I hate it. It's totally, totally untrue. Also, rare earth metals doesn't mean they're rare. That's just what they're called. But they're not rare. They're their own little column on the periodic table. They're not rare. You know, uranium is rare. You know, and then, you know, you can also—if you're going to stand on, like, "I don't want slave labor," well, don't use a cell phone because I won't use, you know, cobalt. Well, there are lots of battery chemistries without cobalt. And more and more coming all the time. In fact, like the Tesla, the Model 3, Model Y, it's LFP, lithium iron phosphate—no cobalt. It's just lithium.

And also, you know, there's enough lithium. They found enough lithium recently in one spot in California to build something like 300 million EVs. So that would cover, like, every human in the US having an EV, basically. And again, it's a one-time thing. It's not oil. So, sorry to get so animated about it. But that one is particularly upsetting. And I remember how this all started. There was an article almost 20 years ago where some dingbat wrote that like, you know, a Prius is worse for the environment than a Hummer. And it's just like, "Come on, man." But, you know, you can write anything and people will believe it. So.

Kristina Zagame: Well, don't apologize for being animated because it's great. It keeps the people interested.

Jonny Lieberman: But that one's very triggering to me because it's just like—like, like—ten seconds of thought would clear that one up. Ten seconds. It's just, you know, and, yeah. So yes, it's water intensive to mine lithium. How do we mine oil? Tell me about fracking. Come on. You know.

Kristina Zagame: I hear you. Do you think that there is one breakthrough, whether it's a new technology, federal policy, or something market-based that could accelerate EV adoption in the US?

Jonny Lieberman: Interesting. I feel like, like I said, like, there was like a policy for renters that just—like heat—they had to have the ability to get a charger where they park their car. I think that would overnight change the game. There's so many people I know that, like, want an EV but won't buy one. Friend of mine—just to be anecdotal about it—but a friend of mine, wealthy dude who happened to live in this apartment building where he kept his, like, his McLaren and his Ferrari and his Porsche—and he had a bunch of cars. He wanted an EV to drive around town because they're great and it makes more sense. And the building people, they just had—they had a no-charging policy for the apartment complex. Made no sense. He had a trickle charger—but, like, you know, if you park a gas car for a long time, you put the battery on a battery tender. It's called a trickle charger. They wouldn't let him do that. And he was like, "Look," he's like, "I did the math. At worst, it's like $11 a year in electricity because you're just keeping a battery charged—you're not really charging. It's just like if it dips a little bit, it just brings it back up." He's like, "Here's $20. I'll pay you double for the electricity I'm going to use." And they're like, "No, it's our policy." He bought a house. He moved. First thing he did, bought an EV.

So I just think that's like—you know, I forget the numbers. Like half of American citizens live in apartments. And it would just double the market share overnight if we could get a policy where it just said, "Hey, that is a fundamental right of a tenant." You know, that's—again, state by state, like, I'm sure—and I don't know, like, you know, San Diego, I don't know if you need to have heat. Or I shouldn't say city by city. Like, I know in LA they're actually talking about making, like, air conditioning mandatory because it's gotten so hot. You know, you won't be able to, like, rent to someone unless there's air conditioning. But I think it should be like that. You have to have, you know, water or hot water, you know, whatever. Whatever the rules are, I don't know enough about it, but that should be a law. I feel like—

Kristina Zagame: Yeah. If you had to bet, when would EVs hit 50% of new car sales in America?

Jonny Lieberman: Oh, 50% in the US. Boy, I—you know, it's tough to say. Like, there has been a bit of a—I hate the term—a backlash. It's just—it's just the rate of EVs was accelerating and it tapered off. Still accelerating. We sold over a million EVs last year out of like 14 million cars sold. It's like 8% of the market. I had heard that 8% was a tipping point. And once you get to 8%, it's just all over and eventually it gets to 100-ish percent. I don't know. I don't know when that's going to be. I used to think 2035 would be for sure. I'd push it back to 2040. Maybe. But I don't know. You know, I'd be a lot wealthier if I could predict the future better. But you can see, like, in, you know, Norway, it happened relatively quickly. You know, again, I think it's like 90% of the vehicles on the road, or slightly over, are electric. And now you can't buy anything for personal use that's not electric. And again, in Norway, an incredibly long country in terms of distance and incredibly cold. So all those things where "you can't drive long distances" and "they don't work in the cold"—like, I remember being in the Arctic Circle in Norway in the dead of winter. And there was—like, went to a gas station. Maybe that's the wrong word for it, but there was a gas station that had four pumps and there was 12 EV chargers, you know, and different companies too. There was like a Tesla section, and there was—I don't know—the European brands, but different types of chargers.

So, yeah. I don't know in the US when that will happen. I feel it is inevitable because if you just line everything up—like again, back to your RAV4—just it makes more sense to have an EV most of the time. Like, yeah, a V12 supercar, you want to go on a Sunday drive? Yeah, that's more pleasurable to some people than an EV. And that market will probably always exist. Guys and girls that want to spend, you know, $4 million on a hypercar? Yeah, let them have a V12. I guess they don't drive them very much. They're not really that polluting. But, you know, for most of the people, most of the time, an EV is better. So I think it will happen despite the sustained hate campaign against EVs.

Kristina Zagame: Yeah. Oh, that's so cool. Kind of off of what you were just saying. For someone like you who has driven all of the flashy, high-performing cars out there, how do you feel like EVs stack up in the fun-to-drive category?

Jonny Lieberman: They can be just as fun. I mean, I always go back—there's this thing called a Pininfarina Battista, which is like a 1,900-horsepower hypercar EV, four motors. Man, I had fun driving that. And, like, will you get people that are like, "Oh, it doesn't make a loud noise. I don't like it"? Yeah, of course. You know, and I love—I love a good-sounding engine more than most people. You know, that's kind of my passion in life—like supercars. I love them. But, you know, like, I'll give you for instance, like, we just shot a Lamborghini Revuelto video for my YouTube channel, 1,001-horsepower supercar. And to get the sustained 110-mile-an-hour tracking shot from another vehicle that was smooth, we used my pickup truck, my off-road-tired pickup truck, because the Rivian can do it and it handles great. So I think it's great to drive. You know, the Lamborghini is much more fun to drive than the Rivian. The Rivian's a better off-roader. But my point is that, like, you will start to see more and more electric performance cars that are great.

And the one everyone points at is the Hyundai Ioniq 5 N. It's great. It's a terrific, fun little—not little—midsize performance vehicle. And there's just going to be more and more and more. And then there's stuff like the McMurtry Spéirling. I don't know if you've seen that, but it's this absolutely insane ground-effects EV that like, you know, whatever track it goes on, it shatters the record. Nothing can compete with it. And that's an EV and that's its own kind of fun, you know? So I think they can be pretty fun. And we're just getting going, you know? We're just getting started.

Kristina Zagame: All right, my final question is if you can give kind of like your elevator pitch answer to someone who is considering buying an EV but isn't 100% sold. What's your advice?

Jonny Lieberman: Yeah. Again, if you just—if you look at a class of vehicle—and midsize SUV is a great one because that's what Americans love, midsize SUVs. Like, you know, and again, you're looking at a RAV4 and Honda CR-V and Ford Escape and all that, or an electric version of those. If you just drive them both, and, you know, again, it would help to understand like what one-pedal driving is. And that's just where like, you know, when you take your foot off the accelerator, it starts to slow down. You don't have to use the brake pedal. And that, if you've never done it before, weirds people out. Humans are wired to hate change in any way. It's, you know, evolutionarily, when something changes, that's bad. You know, we like stability. But if you understand how that works and just drive them, like, boy, EVs have, you know, basically every advantage other than you can't use a gas station. You know, it's going to be quieter. Again, inherently more sporty because the center of gravity is lowered by a foot. I mean, literally a foot on the vehicles. Everything's under your feet. You know, more refined. There's no transmission, you know, so there's no shifts. You know, and again, it depends on what for—I have just weirdly a lot of friends that have horses and they like to tow horses around. I didn't know this. Apparently, towing horses is a nightmare because horses get upset. Well, you know, as vehicles are shifting gears, it rocks the horses around. With an EV, there's no gear shift. So it's a really good, silent, clean way. You're not blowing diesel smoke in the horses' faces. You know, it's just nice.

Yeah. So I just can't think of a downside other than the very real ones of cost. It costs more. You know, money's a thing. Convenience. I would say 99% of the time it's more convenient to own an EV if you own your own home and you can put a charger in. Way more convenient. You know, I mean, my wife, who didn't care either way—I remember, like, after about a month of having our truck, she was like, "Hey, you know what I like most about it? I haven't been to a gas station in a month. I hate gas stations." And I'm like, "You never have to go again." You know? You don't need to.

Kristina Zagame: Great. Anything else? Any last words? You answered all of my questions.

Jonny Lieberman: No, you know, I can leave you with an anecdote, and that is, you know, I'm probably more of a storyteller than anything, but I was with some South African people, friends of mine, and they came to California and we have this little car club we go to. And I was talking to the husband and he's like, "Oh, I hate EVs. Like, you know, they're horrible, blah, blah, blah. They're the worst." On and on. The usual thing I hear from everybody. And I happen to have my truck there, my Rivian. And I said, "You want to drive it?" He goes, "No, no, I have no interest." I go, "Would you go for a ride with me? Can I just take you on a ride?" And again, 835-horsepower truck that handles very well. It's got—and we drove around for five minutes. We came back and he just said, "Can I buy your truck off of you? I want to take it home with me."

And, like, experience, you know—before—and I'm saying this from a very entitled position where it is my job to drive the cars—but, like, experience them before you pass judgment on them. I guess would be my final words. Like, you know, people say a lot of things that aren't true. So experience the car.

Kristina Zagame: No kidding. Thank you so much, Jonny. I appreciate this a lot. This is very fun.