'I didn't even know the power was out'—inside one YouTuber's net-zero home

When Matt Ferrell set out to build his net-zero home in Massachusetts, he knew it would be a learning experience. What he didn't anticipate was just how much red tape—and patience—would be required. However, the sense of relief he feels now was worth every frustration, and every penny—all $90,000 of them.

As the creator of Undecided with Matt Ferrell, a YouTube channel with over one million subscribers dedicated to exploring sustainable technology, Ferrell has spent years talking about clean energy solutions. But when it came time to walk the walk, he discovered that building an energy-resilient home is equal parts exciting innovation and frustrating bureaucracy.

We sat down with Ferrell to discuss his journey from retrofitting a 1950s house to building a comprehensive net-zero home with enough solar and battery storage to meet all of his family’s needs. Here's what he learned, and what he wants other homeowners to know before they take the plunge.

Kristina Zagame: Matt, on your channel, Undecided with Matt Ferrell, for people who don't know, you talk about all different kinds of technology and how it impacts our life. You have a specific focus on renewable and sustainable options, over one million subscribers, and a very impressive library of content. And you're pumping up new videos all the time, which for someone who also does YouTube, I'm especially impressed by. How did you get here?

Matt Ferrell: But by accident would be the best answer. I have a degree in video production and went on to a different course in my career. And after 20 years working in the tech sector, I was like, I want to do something different. So I jumped into YouTube and started making videos about the technologies that I find most interesting. And it's kind of the intersection of my concern with climate change and just my obsession with technology. And where those two things overlap is the sustainable technologies that I talk about on the channel.

Kristina Zagame: And so have you always had that kind of an interest in sustainability and climate change, or was that a newer interest of yours?

Matt Ferrell: It's been a lifelong thing, like from being even a little kid, it's like I was aware of it kind of bubbling out there in the conversations. As I got older, I became more aware of it. So it's always been kind of part of me. It was this kind of finding that scratched that itch for me; I've always been obsessed with technology, and then I've always been concerned about the climate. So it's like it's been a lifelong thing.

Kristina Zagame: Right. So what I really enjoy about your content is you're one of those people who really focus on education and sharing what you do, but you're not  promising people that if they do everything you do, it's the right move for them. You know, it might work great for one person and not for another. And that's something that I think is kind of a misconception about people who are into this stuff. They think we're trying to shove it down everyone's throats, but that's not actually the case. You're very open and honest about that, which I like.

Matt Ferrell: Yeah. There's no one solution that can rule them all. It's like if you look at your individual situation and come up with a solution that solves your specific needs. So if there's anybody that tells you, just go solar, you should ignore them. Anybody that says you never should go solar, it’s a scam, you should ignore them, too. The answer is always somewhere in the middle. You gotta find the answer for yourself.

Kristina Zagame: Yeah. And talking about that for you,  you've built this net-zero home. You've got a lot of content on your channel about it for people who are interested. And net-zero just means that you are producing at least the same amount of energy that you're using, although I think you're producing a little bit more, and we will get to that. But what drove you to walk the walk and build this home and try out all this stuff for yourself?

Matt Ferrell: Well, in my previous house, we were kind of retrofitting it. It was an older house from the 1950s, and it was very small, and we were trying to do it there. So it was like we were slowly upgrading that house. Added solar to it. Batteries. We upgraded the HVAC system, stuff like that. But we were hitting a kind of a barrier of there's only so much we can do in this old house. And I had so many things I was interested in geothermal heating and cooling, stuff like that. It was like, this stuff's never going to work in this house. And it was also kind of small. So we thought, we need to find a new place and walk the walk. And of all the stuff I've been talking about for years, I'll actually be able to experience it. So I thought, let's try to build a house and do everything from the ground up with all these different technologies, so I can actually experience it firsthand, not just talk about it. So that happened maybe around four years ago or so, where I kind of got inspired and convinced my wife.

Kristina Zagame: That's probably the hardest part, right? Convincing the spouse. Just to backtrack a little. So you said you tried to do as much as you could in your smaller home. Obviously, not everyone has the ability to just start over and build this amazing, sustainable net-zero home. Did you find that the things that you were able to do in your smaller home were worth it, or was it just more of a hassle than it was worth?

Matt Ferrell: Oh, no. It was absolutely worth it. Like adding solar into that house and the battery system. We got a single Tesla Powerwall in that house. It worked fantastic. It was like a 100% new house. It's going to do the similar thing. The stuff that we weren't able to do because just cost constraints of the property and stuff like that were geothermal was just out of the equation. Stuff like that was just never going to happen. So it's like that's kind of where we were hitting the boundaries of the current house. But everything we did ended up being worth it in the long run.

Kristina Zagame: Okay. Was that other house also in New England?

Matt Ferrell: Yeah, it was in Framingham, Massachusetts. So it was, yeah, about 20 miles away from Boston.

Kristina Zagame: Yes. One of my first jobs was in Framingham, so I'm very familiar. Back in high school. Okay, so that actually brings me to my next question, because not a lot of people here in Massachusetts choose to install batteries. So what was your reasoning for also wanting a battery?

Matt Ferrell: There were a couple of reasons, but one of them was just kind of like energy security. We didn't lose power a lot. But sometimes in the winter, nor'easters come through, knock down power lines, and stuff like that. And that had happened to us on a frequent enough basis that there was this one time where we lost power for—it was a little over a day. And basically, you know, you have to throw everything out of your fridge, like all that kind of stuff. So it's like being able to maintain your heating and cooling, your hot water, as well as your fridge. Just to have a battery for there for energy security was a big one, and the other part was kind of like what I've talked about before of like my interests in sustainability were like, okay, I want to use as much as the energy as I'm producing as I can in the house, but also be able to participate in a program like here, Massachusetts. We have the Connected Solutions program. So I was participating in the virtual power plant. So my battery was helping the broader grid, my neighbors, and my community. And that was very compelling for me as well, because then it also helped to cover some of the cost of installing the Powerwall. So for me, it was kind of a little bit of energy security and wanting to try to participate in a program that could help the community at large.

Kristina Zagame: You were like the all star solar neighbor. Seems like this is like the crowning jewel of what we try to tell everyone about. This was not on my projected list of questions for today, but now that I have you here… you're telling me that you sold a house with solar panels? What was that experience like? Were the new people so excited to have solar or was it something you had to convince them is great?

Matt Ferrell: That's the interesting thing. My wife and I were a little concerned that there would have to be a big explanation to people of, like, tell them why this is worth it. And my wife even put together a little like one sheet printout that she left on the counter so people could take it and see how much energy it was going to save them and how much it would reduce their bills and all this stuff. And it turns out that really wasn't necessary in our area here in Massachusetts, it was highly desirable to have the panels on the house and have them already there. So it actually helps in the sale of the house because people saw the immediate value of I'll have a lower electric bill, this is going to be worth it, I want it. The actual results of the sale, the new owner, and this is my fault. I'm a, like I said, I'm tech obsessed. So I did more technology to the house than I probably should have. And so it was a little overwhelming for the new owner when I basically gave them a booklet of like, here's all the stuff. And so a lot of the stuff I had done, they ended up not wanting, but like the solar panels and things they did keep and they enjoyed them.

Kristina Zagame: It sounds like me trying to explain how to save a PDF to my father. He's like, no, just. I don't need them. Okay, jokes aside, you talked about the Tesla Powerwall. That was a battery you chose to install. Why did you pick that one?

Matt Ferrell: I actually got that one for free through my EV journey and stuff like that. I had earned enough referral points to get from Tesla at the time. They had a program where you could get referral bonuses and get free Powerwall, and I got a free Powerwall, so that's all I had to do was pay for an electrician to install it. So that's my main reason for doing it because it saved me a huge amount of money going that path.

Kristina Zagame: Did you like your experience of the Powerwall? Do you have Powerwalls in your new home as well?

Matt Ferrell: I have Enphase, I have the Enphase IQ5 batteries at my new place. The Powerwall was great. It was really reliable, the software, super easy to use and understand. I really liked it a lot.

Kristina Zagame: Are you enjoying your new batteries?

Matt Ferrell: Oh yeah, they're just as good. It's like the nervous system again; it's all in an app. Very easy to understand. Set it up, configure it for how much of a backup you want to hold on to, if you have time of use rates, all that kind of stuff. It's really easy to set up, and it has the wonderful feature of like if there's a big storm coming through, it will automatically charge your battery up to full to make sure that you have enough battery for the weather event that's about to come through. So it's a nice feature.

Kristina Zagame: That's really cool. I actually didn't even know that. That's super cool. Well, you talk a lot about the steps you go through to build your home and all of that. We know from working in this industry that choosing the right size solar battery system is really important for everything to work cohesively. How big is your entire system size, and how did you kind of configure that, or did you work with an installer who helped you do so?

Matt Ferrell: Yeah. I worked with an installer, a company called Great Sky Solar. They're the ones who installed the solar panel system on my previous house, and I had them do this house as well. I had a really good experience with them. They helped me size it, but I went in because I know more than the average person off the street, I kind of set my size, the system myself. I knew what I was going to need, so I talked to them directly about that. So my solar panel system is about 17.2 kilowatts, and then I have 20 kilowatt hours of Enphase batteries in our garage. 

I actually wanted more storage, but couldn't do it because of the permitting restrictions of where I live. Where I live, if I was going to go over 20, I think it was over 20 kilowatt hours of storage, I was going to need a sprinkler system installed in the garage for fire suppression, and I wasn't going to spend that. So I just hit the cap and just stopped. But I wish I could have gone a little higher. But yeah, I basically was trying to size the system. As we talked earlier about net-zero, I was hoping to achieve net-zero over the course of a year, which I am. I'm hitting that, but I just wish I could use more of that energy myself because my battery gets me almost all the way through the next day, but not quite. So it's like there's an hour a day where I end up pulling from the grid because I don't have enough energy storage.

Kristina Zagame: An hour a day is not bad, though. Especially with electricity prices in Massachusetts. So, you mentioned permitting. Yeah. Kind of a nice segue here. You've talked in past videos, you had a permitting hell with getting your battery system installed. Is that because of the sprinkler system, or were there other issues going on?

Matt Ferrell: There were a lot of issues. I don't want to throw shade at my specific utility, but it's there.

Kristina Zagame: We throw a lot of shade at utilities around here, so.

Matt Ferrell: I'll refer to it. Because I had a very large solar panel array, and I was doing a fair amount of energy storage, we had to submit something under the expedited permitting process, and I found it hysterical. It was called expedited. And it took like six months to get all the permits figured out. It was like, if that's expedited...

Kristina Zagame: You know, the unexpected version.

Matt Ferrell: That’s just permits going to the utility and going to a black hole, not hearing anything for months on end. And then you'd hear back, and there would be something they wanted clarification on. And then the town I live in is very, very particular about building codes and very strict about certain things that they don't want in their buildings in the town. And so there was a lot of back and forth with them around the permits from them as well. So that was the permitting hell. I did not expect this much back and forth with the utility and the local town to figure all this kind of stuff out. Whereas when I was in Framingham, it was way easier. So...

Kristina Zagame: I know it is kind of funny. And we talk about here how it would be nice if there were just universal permitting because it's so specific town to town. And, a lot of people come to us and ask questions, and I'm like, well, it depends where you live. And then the other thing is, you just never really know with permitting. From your experience, do you have any advice to homeowners on how their experience could potentially be less hellish, or is it just like you really can't because it was out of your hands?

Matt Ferrell: It's a little out of your hands, but the thing I would bring up is do your homework before you jump in, and have a lot of patience. So it might just be like sending an email to your local town, finding out what the requirements are for yourself, before you hire a contractor to do anything for you. The more information you have yourself, even though it may take a long time, it won't feel like you're just adrift, not understanding what's happening. You will completely understand the whole situation. So even though it may take a long time, if you know what's required going in, you'll know what questions to ask the installer. The installer can also hold your hand and help you through the whole process. So just do your homework ahead of time. That would be my big piece of advice.

Kristina Zagame: You talked a little bit earlier about deciding to enroll in a virtual power plant program, which for people who aren't familiar, it's kind of what it sounds like. It's a virtual power plant. It's like a whole network of different systems, solar panels, batteries that connect together and help neighbors kind of pull from battery systems. That's my really short explanation of it. We do a whole video on it. I think virtual power plants are great. For what it's worth, I've also heard some negative experiences from it. I think that's mostly from the people who have their smart thermostats connected and then get upset when they can't crank the AC at the same time as everyone else. What was your experience in the program? Would you recommend it? Are you still in one?

Matt Ferrell: Yes. In the new house, I'm in a virtual power plant program. The same Connected Solutions program. In the old house, I was in it, and I also had my Ecobee thermostat enrolled in that thermostat. Same thing. So I got to experience the, it's getting a little stuffy in the house. Why is it getting stuffy? Oh, I'm in a period where they've knocked my AC down. So that is a mixed bag. The nice part about the program is that you can easily opt out. So it's like if you're not happy with it, just go to your thermostat, basically cancel out of the thing and it'll go back to normal. So it's not anything I would say don't do. I would say do it because you're still in very much control. 

It's the same thing for the virtual power plant for the Powerwall or my Enphase system. You're in complete control, so you can override at any point, opt out from an event. It's going to reduce how much of a payback you get at the end of the year. But it's been fantastic. On top of which you can still control how much of a backup is in the system. So, for instance, over the summer, like last summer, there was something like 44 events where it drained from my battery, but I had set my backup to maintain at least 30%. So even though the utility was pulling from my battery, it would stop at whatever hard limit I set for myself that I was comfortable with. So again, it's still very much in the homeowner's control of how much you're willing to kind of parcel out. It just depends on that kind of reward balance that you're trying to find for how much of a payout you want to see at the end of the year? Because the more you participate, the more money you'll get back. Batteries are expensive, so it can kind of help pay for itself.

Kristina Zagame: So if you have high heat tolerance then you're okay to. Although like you mentioned, you can opt out. I think it depends on the utility. But I've seen some that you can opt out like up to 20 times a year without being penalized. So I think it's still well worth it. In New England, we don't have maybe as many severe weather fluctuations as other parts of the country, but it still gets pretty wild here. How has your battery system so far handled the super cold winters, hot summer days? It's been extremely hot this summer for New England anyway.

Matt Ferrell: It's been fantastic. I mean, just actually, I think it was two days ago, we lost power. I didn't even know it because the battery system, we had a glitch. I'm sitting there working on my computer. My wife comes in, goes, “I think we're out of power.” And she pulled up the app and was like, hey, we have no power right now. And I think it was because it was super hot a few days ago. And I think the grid may have just like blipped. And so we went on battery power for like 15 minutes until the power came back again. I never knew. So, that's to me,  the energy security side. It's like you have a battery system like this, it's just a seamless experience. You're not even aware stuff like this is happening outside the house. So, to me, it's been functioning perfectly. Exactly like I was hoping.

Kristina Zagame: Have you experienced any extended power outages since you had it installed?

Matt Ferrell: Not yet. Over the winter, we had an outage that was a couple of hours. That was the longest one we've had. So again, the battery system is plenty big to handle that kind of load. It wouldn't take me 24 hours because like I just described, even when they're fully charged up, it still kind of doesn't quite get all the way through. But when there's a power outage, I also have a Span smart panel. So I have kind of a hierarchy of needs. So, depending on what the battery charge is, it'll start to knock off circuits. So I can very quickly reduce the house's energy load to extend the battery life during a blackout.

Kristina Zagame: Wow. You really have it all figured out, I love it, I love it. So, Massachusetts, we don't deal with a lot of severe power outages or extended power outages. Obviously, though, severe weather is getting more frequent, getting more severe, especially in places like Texas, Florida. Do you think that solar batteries, or home batteries, rather, are the best solution for homeowners who are looking to keep their lights on during things like hurricanes, tornadoes?

Matt Ferrell: Yeah. If you're concerned about that kind of stuff, I think it is 100%. And the prices are dropping, and there are new batteries coming on the market all the time that are very cost-competitive. So it's like, don't even just consider Tesla Powerwall. There are so many options out there that are very cost-effective for home backup. Again, with my statement I said before, don't take me as saying everybody should go get a battery because every use case is going to be different. But if you're somebody who is very concerned about energy security because of tornadoes or hurricanes or blackout conditions, if you live in Florida, a battery is probably where you should be looking first because it's going to be the most economical long-term solution. It's quiet, no fumes, no gasoline. Some solar panels will keep it charged up. So it's self-sustaining. It's a wonderful solution. So I would highly recommend that.

Kristina Zagame: You kind of just brought this up, but in terms of the pricing, you've been very honest about what you spent. I believe it was about $90,000 total on your system. That's a price that's not cheap. Do you honestly feel that investment has paid off?

Matt Ferrell: It will. Yes. I would say right now we're only two years in. And for the system to fully pay itself off if there were no incentives at all, it would pay itself off in nine years. That's not bad. And this is a house I'm going to be living in for the next 25, 30 years. You know, it's going to earn itself back. Like I did the calculations where it's going to save me over the next 30 years, $196,000. So if you just look long-term, it's going to make sense. 

With the incentives that I'm getting back from the system, it's going to be much shorter. It's gonna be something like seven years for my setup. So in about five more years, the system should have theoretically hit kind of its payback period. So it's been well worth it financially. But again, it's not just about the finances, it's also about energy security. I keep hammering home on that because it's like it's hard to put a price on. People install whole home generators for concerns like this. So it's like instead of installing a home generator, install solar panels and a battery system, achieve similar results, and it's going to save me money on my bill at the same time.

Kristina Zagame: What does having energy security mean for you and your family?

Matt Ferrell: Well, there's the whole thing of just not having to worry. There's just no worry. Like, I think my computer and the power is out in the neighborhood, and we never know. Like, it's just that sense of security for my family knowing that we're not going to have spoiled food in the fridge, that we don't have to worry about this kind of stuff. To me, it's that sense of relief that makes it all worthwhile.

Kristina Zagame: Do you feel at all with, you know, a lot of incentives going away at the end of this year, and some utilities in some parts of the country are very friendly in installing solar batteries, others not so much. Do you feel at all like current policy and utilities are maybe limiting the benefit of installing home storage?

Matt Ferrell: Yes, 100%, without a doubt. So with the latest changes that are making these incentives go away, I think it's incredibly shortsighted. It's going to really kind of hamper homeowners being able to get into the market of doing this for themselves, which I find just incredibly sad because there's so much benefit from it. On the flip side, when we talked about permitting and things like that, you mentioned, I wish there was a simpler, universal way. If you look at Australia, what they're doing for how solar is installed, you literally pull out your phone, you go to a website, you fill in a like a little one page form online, hit submit, and within 24 hours you get the okay or not okay. And if you get the okay, you literally can have the solar panels installed by next week.

Kristina Zagame: That's crazy.

Matt Ferrell: Yeah, and they have incredibly cheap solar. And part of the reason it's incredibly cheap is that process. It's like if we can get permitting and make the whole process of getting it installed in your house easier for the installers, the contractors, easier for the homeowners, the cost of actually getting it installed will get way cheaper with or without incentives. So it's like there's just so many things we could do to make it better. And I'm just really frustrated that the current policies are hampering it for basically everybody.

Kristina Zagame: Yeah, it's wild what Australia has going on. It almost seems like a Carvana first thing ordering online. This isn't an ad for Carvana, but it seems like something that should be that easy. You know, it's really easy to get connected to the solar installer, but then the process of going through all the red tape to actually get it on your roof… yeah. On a more optimistic note, where do you see home energy storage heading in the next 5 to 10 years? Or at least I hope this is a more optimistic note.

Matt Ferrell: Okay, good. The cost of batteries themselves have been like falling off a cliff for the past decade. It is dramatic how much cheaper it's getting. And new batteries are coming to the market, like sodium ion batteries are coming on the market that are going to be crazy cheap compared to lithium. They're more equivalent to like a lithium iron phosphate, which is what's in my battery in the garage. So it's like in the next 5 to 10 years, I think home energy storage prices will be way lower than they are today, way more accessible, which I'm super excited about. 

I'm also seeing more stuff come to the market, more modular approaches to home energy storage. So it's like you wouldn't have to go out and get this big $10,000 Tesla Powerwall or big Enphase system. You could start small and spend a few thousand dollars to get something installed, and then over time, just add to that stack slowly over time as money allows or needs change or you're getting more. There's also other companies I know of that are coming up with products that are going to be geared right towards people who live in apartments, people who don't have homes where you can add modular batteries inside the house and just plug it into a wall outlet, and these batteries can work together and give you the same benefits as having an energy storage system in your garage. But it's yours. It's portable. You go to a new apartment, it goes with you. So I think in the next 5 to 10 years, the options that we're all going to have, whether you're a homeowner or not, will be fantastic.

Kristina Zagame: Do you think there's any way that we can help increase battery adoption?

Matt Ferrell: That's a really hard question. The only way to increase it would be for people like you and me just communicating and telling as many people as we can what it's like to have it, what the benefits are, why you would want to get one, and why the cost is justified. And then on the stuff that you and I can't control, it's what I just mentioned. It's like we need cheaper batteries: reliable, safe, cheap batteries. They're coming. They're absolutely coming. But once those get here and it’s kind of on us, you know, truth to power, talking about all the benefits of it. I think those two things combined will really help grow the market.

Kristina Zagame: I agree. You helped over a thousand people go solar just by making content, sharing your experience. Do you feel responsibility as an influencer in helping people make these major financial decisions for their home?

Matt Ferrell: Yes. It's like, I didn't use to feel this way, but as my channel got bigger and the, I hate using this word, the influence got bigger, I became more and more aware of when I say some of this stuff, there's a weight to it. I have to be very cautious about what I'm promoting and what I'm saying, which is part of the reason why I try to be very open and honest about my personal experiences with the stuff, because I want to, warts and all, kind of describe it all, because I want to make sure everybody who goes in is well-armed to understand what they're getting into.

Kristina Zagame: What advice would you give to someone who is between a regular home generator and a home battery option for their backup power?

Matt Ferrell: Again, that's going to be very individualized.

Kristina Zagame: Okay. See, he's not a solar salesman.

Matt Ferrell: If you're somebody who might live in an area that has lots of power outages that go for extended periods of time, and if those extended periods of time are in conditions where it wouldn't be conducive to generate a lot of solar power to make up and charge that system, and maybe you don't have solar, you're just looking at battery. It's like if you don't have solar, a generator might make more sense in that situation. If you have solar, the case for a battery gets better because the solar panels charge the battery. 

But I'm just thinking of if you're in an area that's having a huge hurricane and knocking power out, and it can be very cloudy, and you're not getting a lot of solar production for days at a time, there might be a rationale for why you might want a generator over a battery. But for me, I think it's more about do you have solar or not? You need to know that to really answer the question. If there's no solar, maybe a generator? If there is solar, I'd still argue for a battery.

Kristina Zagame: Okay. We have seen a lot of utilities start, I shouldn't say a lot, more utilities are increasingly starting to use grid-scale storage for towns. Do you think that if more utilities were able to do that, install software, install backup battery storage for entire towns, do you think that home batteries would still remain relevant for individual homeowners? Or do you think there would be a centralized solution?

Matt Ferrell: I think it's a good question. My personal take is I think utilities should be spending more time on home batteries. There are utilities here in New England. I think it's in Vermont, there's a program where the utility actually pays for the battery that goes in your house. So you're basically, as a homeowner, getting the benefit of having a Powerwall that you don't have to pay for. But it's their battery to use as a virtual power plant system, and they don't have to lease land to build major infrastructure updates. They get the benefit of just all the homes that are there. Just put batteries in all the homes and you get the same kind of benefit out of having a centralized, gigantic grid power system. So I would actually make the argument of not going all in on grid-scale storage. You need it. But I don't think you need to provide the entire town's power from that system. I think they're both complementary.

Kristina Zagame: This is sort of backtracking a little bit, but you talked about the responsibility that you feel like you have in making sure that your content is, I mean, truthful, but also, you know, making sure that you're not promoting something that might not fit everyone's individual needs. What is the one thing that you hope when people come to your channel that they can take away from your specifically on your net-zero home content?

Matt Ferrell: There's a little bit of a learn from my mistakes. It's important. I kind of look at the content that I've been putting together as a menu. It's like, look at all the different options. You don't have to do all the options. If there's only one thing I've talked about that you go, oh, that's interesting. That's great. Like, you don't have to do it all. It's like, I hope people take away, I'm just showing and talking about options. It doesn't mean you have to do it. I just want to raise awareness. Some people don't even realize some of these things are even an option in the first place. So the thing I want people to walk away with is just a broader understanding of what they have to choose from to make their homes better.

Kristina Zagame: And looking back at those installation challenges and mistakes that you've made, what is something that you would tell homeowners about the process of vetting installers, project management for installing these complex systems?

Matt Ferrell: It's what I said before, which was do your homework ahead of time so you know what questions to ask. Because oftentimes contractors, I don't want to throw all contractors under the bus, but it's like contractors will sometimes say one thing to get the signature on the dotted line. And then it turns out they don't have all the knowledge that you thought they did. And you may end up knowing more about it than they did. And so you may find yourself having to kind of shepherd them through the process, where if you did your homework earlier and knew exactly what questions to ask when you're hiring contractors, you could ask key questions to get a sense of, do they know as much as they're claiming to? Or do they actually understand what I'm looking for? And then if you get those red flags, warning flags going off in the back of your mind, listen to them and find somebody else that's going to be a better fit for you.

Kristina Zagame: You seem to have had a good experience with your solar installer where they were like the first people you talked to. Did you talk to other installers? Did you have those moments where you were like this person's trying to sell me something not right? And what was your quote gathering process like?

Matt Ferrell: The first time I did it in my previous house I got a bunch of quotes. I can't remember how many. I got a bunch of quotes. And one of the reasons I went with them was no pressure. Like there was no pressure. And they were willing to answer any question I had. They were very honest in their responses for everything I was looking for. That was what attracted me to them in the first place. And then when I did this house, I did get multiple quotes. I didn't go straight to them. I did go to them, but I also got a few other quotes because I was considering different systems and different things I wanted to see. Are they still price competitive, that kind of a thing. So I still was doing my due diligence, but it wasn't quite as many quotes as I did the first time around because I was like, I know these guys, I like them, you know, their price is still very competitive. So I'll go with them again.

Kristina Zagame: Right. I think that's really helpful feedback for people who are going through the process, because it is so easy to hear something and be like, great, but you do want to make sure you're getting multiple quotes, you're having those different experiences. 

All right. My last question for you. For listeners who cannot afford to do a full net-zero renovation, what do you feel is the highest impact or most affordable step that they can take toward creating a more energy resilient home today?

Matt Ferrell: Home insulation. Lowest hanging fruit. If you have any kind of access to getting a home energy audit, that will be the best money you can ever spend in your house. Like in Massachusetts, we have the Mass Save program. Some people come to your house, they do a basic energy audit to do testing, to see what kind of insulation you have, what you need. They'll give you recommendations, and then you can just take it from the things that will be the highest impact for every dollar you spend. But the insulation and the air tightness for your home are going to pay in dividends over time. And that's not even changing your HVAC, that's not adding solar or anything. So check the insulation in your house, make sure things are airtight, like leaky windows and leaky doors, stuff like that. That's where you're going to win the most.

Kristina Zagame: All right, Matt, thank you so much. This was so fun. Do you have any other things that we might have missed, anything else you wanted to mention or talk about before we sign off here?

Matt Ferrell: My big recommendation is to keep an open mind on all this stuff. Just try to ignore a lot of the very politicized arguments around these things and just do your homework. Keep an open mind.