Why solar is the 'Costco of energy,' according to Bill McKibben

News of the federal solar tax credit ending left a huge question mark on the future of the U.S. residential solar industry, with some homeowners questioning if it still makes financial sense. Spoiler: It does. In fact, climate activist Bill McKibben thinks putting solar panels on your roof is more important now than ever.

McKibben is one of the biggest names in environmental activism, writing the first book on climate change for a general audience back in the 1980s. His newest release, Here Comes the Sun, argues that we’re at a once-in-a-generation turning point for solar energy. In this episode of Plugged In: The Full Conversation, Kristina Zagame sat down with McKibben to talk about some of the big questions homeowners are asking right now: 

• Why does solar cost 3x more in the U.S. than in Europe?

• What’s behind the permitting bottleneck slowing installations?

• And does solar still make financial sense after losing the federal tax credit?

Kristina Zagame: First of all, congrats on your new book, Here Comes the Sun. Did you want to say anything about that or talk a little bit about what inspired you to write it?

Bill McKibben: I've been hard at work on this climate stuff for a long time. I wrote the first book about what we now call the climate crisis—what we then called the greenhouse effect—back in the 1980s. It's not exactly cheerful work most of the time, but we finally have this scalable tool to be used in the climate fight. I wanted to let people know that things are shifting fast. When you live on a planet where the cheapest way to make power is to point a sheet of glass at the sun, all of a sudden, change can start to come easily. The world is generating a third more power from the sun this fall than it was last fall. We're at the steep part of the curve, and I wanted to get that across to people.

Kristina Zagame: You have previously described solar energy as almost too cheap. You've also suggested there just isn't enough money in it for investors to get behind it. Can you elaborate more on those thoughts?

Bill McKibben: This has been very good work by a guy named Brett Christophers, who wrote a book called The Price is Wrong, pointing out that probably the reason this is getting done faster in China than any place else is they're less constrained by the need for investors to make money off of it. The CEO of Exxon said last year that Exxon would never invest in renewable energy because, as he put it, it doesn't provide above-average returns for our investors—which is accurate. You can obviously get rich putting up solar panels. There'll be wind billionaires. But you can't get Exxon-rich because once the panels are up, the sun delivers the energy for free every morning when it rises above the horizon. So from the point of view of an Exxon, that's the silliest business model of all time. For the rest of us, it's the best possible news.

Kristina Zagame: We're going to dive more into the cost associated, but for the purpose of today's conversation, we're talking more specifically about why going solar is still a solid investment for homeowners, even now with federal incentives falling to the wayside. The 30% tax credit for homeowners is technically through the end of this year, but most people already had to have their systems in process right now to even claim that. What is your realistic answer to a homeowner saying, "Okay, I missed out on getting this incentive. Can I actually save money with solar now?"

Bill McKibben: You probably still can in most places, but we also have some work to do to make that much easier for Americans. The real problem here is that solar costs us three times as much as it does in Europe or Australia. And that's in too large measure due to the administrative hurdles that we put in the way. There are 15,000 building departments and municipalities in this country—each has a building department who would like to go climb on your roof. Not necessary. Doesn't happen elsewhere in the world. If we could knock that down, then the price would plummet.

So we're working hard on that at places like Third Act, trying to pass legislation. We've just come out of this big Sun Day event with 500 actions across the country, and a lot of them aimed at getting local and state legislatures to make it much easier to put solar up on the roof. So as that happens over the next year or two, I think the financial case will get even stronger. But the other thing that's going to get stronger is that the price of electricity is skyrocketing in this country. And the reason it's skyrocketing is because we have increased demand with things like data centers, which the Trump administration is pushing hard, and dramatically constricted supply. They're shutting down work on big solar farms, offshore wind farms, all those kinds of things. So as the price of electricity just keeps going up and up, the economic equation for homeowners gets better and better. And that's especially true now that we have good cheap batteries, which really changes the game in all kinds of ways.

Kristina Zagame: You are a great guest, Bill, because you are hitting all of my questions in one answer. To backtrack a little bit, we talked about permitting and how it's sort of this bottleneck that we need to get through, especially to reduce the cost involved. Do you think that if we fixed the permitting bottleneck, would losing these incentives have as big of a dig as it feels like they have now?

Bill McKibben: No, no. I was just looking at new data from people who are saying that if we got the price down to what it is in Australia or Europe, we'd see a 140% increase in the number of American households putting solar on the roof. That should be doable. I mean, Americans used to be good at building stuff. We do have a few complications. One is we need more electricians in this country. When young people ask me what job they should take up that would help the planet, I often tell them if you have any inclination along that way, go be an electrician, because it's a good, steady job, pays well, and you're doing an extraordinarily important job.

Kristina Zagame: For people who—I know you've talked about the SolarAPP+ and things that are trying to expedite the permitting process in a lot of states—but for the homeowner who doesn't have access to that and they live somewhere where the permitting process is six months and it's costing them thousands of dollars, what steps do you recommend for them to try to affect change where they live?

Bill McKibben: I mean, find a good contractor—EnergySage and people can obviously be a big help there—but then join in the fight to change these rules. Very hard to do by yourself, but not that hard to do when you're with other people. So at Third Act, which if you—once you become an old person like me, you'll be able to join. We only let you in if you're over 60. We're doing an extraordinary amount of work to try and change those rules everywhere. So it takes some combination of individual action and collective action to get done what we need doing.

Kristina Zagame: I want to ask you more about Third Act in just a moment, but first, do you anticipate now that these incentives are gone that solar prices will drop, or do you think that more needs to happen before that?

Bill McKibben: More needs to happen. I imagine that solar prices will drop some. I imagine that there's a certain number of installers for whom the 30% tax credit was kind of an invitation to raise prices a little bit, and that some of that will fall away. But I also think that a lot of people are going to be really damaged by this. And I'm afraid we're going to see a lot of skilled people in this industry go out of business in the next little while, until we can recover and recoup. That's one reason why changing the permitting rules and things is so crucial.

Kristina Zagame: For homeowners who missed out on these incentives, they might now be thinking, "I'll just wait. The prices will drop." Do you have any advice for these people? Do you think it's smart to wait and hope that they drop, or do you just go solar now?

Bill McKibben: No, I think it's like planting fruit trees. The best time to do it was 20 years ago, and the next best time is today. This still just makes bottom-line sense in all kinds of ways, including not a small thing that you're helping prevent the destruction of the planet that we happen to live on. And there's a lot of people for whom that really matters.

Kristina Zagame: You've referred to solar as profoundly liberating. How does that liberation argument resonate specifically with American homeowners?

Bill McKibben: I've lived my life in rural America. Some of it in red states, some of it blue, but always at the end of dirt roads. That means I have a lot of Trump-y neighbors. I know a lot of people from the fire department, from the church, whatever, who have a Trump flag on their mailbox and a solar panel on the roof. And it's not because they're concerned about climate change. It's because a home that is a castle with an independent power supply is better than one that depends on a utility. That's why a lot of people are doing it—liberation in that sense.

But also liberation in the larger sense. A world that ran on sun and wind would be a way to start cutting the power of the plutocrats and oligarchs that dominate the fossil fuel space. Think about how the geopolitics of the world would have been different in the last hundred years if oil had been of trivial value and we ran things on sun and wind. Think of the wars that we would have avoided. For a lot of people, that's a pretty big liberation, not having to go fight those fights in the Middle East or wherever.

Kristina Zagame: Definitely. It's definitely a larger question of American energy independence. And I know that you've specifically praised Texas a lot as being not only a red state but such wide adoption of renewables and how that state has avoided brownouts and things like that because of their solar and battery storage. For a homeowner who is worried about their power going out, grid reliability and not just the cost aspect, what do you feel like is the value of having solar and battery in the home?

Bill McKibben: I live in a place where the power goes out, but it doesn't go out of my house because we've got solar panels on the roof and batteries in the basement, and they can sustain us for days. And we're increasingly understanding just how important all these batteries are. Look, if you have a Ford F-150 EV—the EV version of America's most popular pickup—the battery on that thing can keep your house going for days and days and days. So this is a good reason to be doing it. And it's a hell of a lot easier to use those battery systems than it is to be firing up the generator and then worrying about whether you're filling your house with carbon monoxide and when you're going to run out of diesel or whatever you're running the generator on. And not to mention the fact that it's pretty nice not to have the noisy roar of that thing going for days and days after the hurricane or the ice storm.

Kristina Zagame: Totally. And I know we kind of mentioned this—batteries, they're getting cheaper, but they are still a pretty significant upfront cost. For the average homeowner, do you still think that solar plus storage is necessary, or do you recommend people kind of start with panels first and then assess from there?

Bill McKibben: I think—I mean, it's all a question of what one can afford in the minute—but I do think it makes it much better to have some storage with it. And the price is falling very, very fast.

Kristina Zagame: Do you anticipate that battery prices will drop alongside solar?

Bill McKibben: Yes, absolutely. In a lot of places—Vermont, where I live—our biggest power plant in the state now is the virtual power plant comprised of people's batteries in the basement that our Green Mountain Power can call on when the time comes for peak power demand. Often, at least in our case, the utility is willing to pay a fair share of the battery price just to make sure that they have that reserve and backup power there to call on. 

Kristina Zagame: For you personally, obviously as a climate activist, going solar is just right in line with your beliefs and your actions. But when you were purchasing your solar panels and battery system, how important was the incentive aspect to you?

Bill McKibben: Well I did it 25 years ago before there were incentives and back when it was really expensive. And I did it because my life's work is trying to head off as much of the climate crisis as we still can. So for me that was by far the most profound reason. But I understand that for lots of people there's a whole lot of other reasons too. And I will say, I quite enjoy the feeling of being my own little utility. I've been very moved to watch across Europe in the last couple years as millions of people in apartments have become their own really little utility with these balcony solar rigs that people are putting up, which are beautiful in their own way and much less complicated. So it's all a remarkable shift away from a few huge centralized energy providers towards something that looks more like the internet, with lots of people feeding in and taking out all the time.

Kristina Zagame: Definitely. I know the solar panel systems that they're developing for apartments and renters is very exciting. It’ll be interesting to see if it makes a big wave here in the States. I want to shift gears to something that you kind of brought up earlier before I forget—AI data centers. This is a topic I know that you have some strong thoughts about. But you have said that tapping into solar and wind energy renewables is really the only way to meet AI data centers' energy demand. Why do you think that's the case?

Bill McKibben: Because theoretically at least, the AI guys tell us we got to move fast, fast, fast, fast, fast, or else China's going to get there first. I don't know. I mean, I'm a little agnostic about the whole AI thing. I'm not sure that it's not 40% hype. But if you're going to build big data centers fast, the only thing that allows you to move at that speed is sun and wind because you can put the stuff up like that. It takes years to build a gas-fired power plant, to build a nuclear power plant takes a decade. This stuff goes up in months, and so that's where we should be turning.

Kristina Zagame: Shifting gears back to homeowner advice. A lot of us in this industry know that unfortunately there are a lot of shady business practices, aggressive solar sales tactics. There's some confusing loan products, hidden fees. You have called previously for an industry reset. What is your vision for how the solar industry should operate?

Bill McKibben: I mean, we need it to be an above-board industry everywhere. Where I live, luckily, it mostly is. And I think most installers are reputable and reliable, but there isn't a very good check on all of this. And it's why things like EnergySage are so important. But it really does pay to understand, get a little help. I mean, it's an important purchase. It's like buying a car or something, which you wouldn't do without asking around a fair amount.

Kristina Zagame: A lot of people still think of solar as something that's only really for wealthy environmentalists. So how do you get through to the practical, budget-conscious, everyday homeowner who just wants to know if this system is a good investment?

Bill McKibben: I just keep telling people this is no longer the Whole Foods of energy—nice but pricey for special people. This is now the Costco of energy. It's cheap. It's available in bulk. It's on the shelf ready to go. And as a loyal Costco customer, that gets through to me, anyway.

Kristina Zagame: I love that analogy. That's great. I'm gonna have to borrow that one. Okay. Lastly, you founded Third Act. You said it's exclusively for people over 60. So I guess I'll hold off on my pitch for membership.

Bill McKibben: You're headed our way. With any luck, you'll get there eventually.

Kristina Zagame: Can you just quickly explain what the Third Act is and why it is important?

Bill McKibben: Thirdact.org. We now have about 100,000 older Americans engaged in the fight for climate and democracy. Older Americans are really important—there's 70 million of us. We vote in very heavy numbers. There's no known way to stop old people from voting. We've got resources often and connections and skills. And so now we're putting them to use in these fights. And a lot of this work around permitting, around working with public utility commissions to make it all easier—all that, it's being done by older Americans. We grew up thinking that we'd addressed many of the world's environmental problems with the first Earth Day and the Clean Air Act and the Clean Water Act. And it galls us to see our governments now stepping back and kowtowing to big oil and so on and so forth. So we're doing what we can to change that, and we're having a good deal of fun in the process. We believe heavily in art and music as part of the fight. And it's easy for us because whatever else you say about our generation, we produced the greatest music the world has ever seen.

Kristina Zagame: I would agree with that. I like listening to the oldies stations. One last quick question, Bill. With the ITC going, it seems like the whole theme of this year has just been "Go solar, go solar now." So now there is this kind of question mark for people who did not get in. What is your pitch to why solar still makes sense for people, for homeowners, for our country, for the planet post-2025?

Bill McKibben: We have to do this. It's a practical necessity if we're going to deal with climate change—the biggest threat we've ever faced. But it's not like we're asking people to make a huge sacrifice. This is energy that's cheaper than the expensive electricity you have to buy from the utility. And it's more reliable. You're in more control of your life. And in the out-of-control world we currently inhabit, being more in control of anything is a really nice possibility.

Kristina Zagame: Definitely. Is there anything else I might have missed or anything else you wanted to talk about while I have you here?

Bill McKibben: Just to say great thanks to you for all the work you're doing and just to remind people just how beautiful these possibilities are. I stole the title of this book, Here Comes the Sun, from George Harrison. It turns out that it's by far the most popular of all the songs in the Beatles' vast catalog. People listen to it twice as often as any other Beatles song every day on Spotify, because it's beautiful and optimistic in a hard time, but also because people have an innate affection for the sun. It already gives us light and warmth and via photosynthesis our supper, and now it's willing to give us all the power we could ever want. So it would be a sin to waste all that.